User:TheCustomOfLife/Soap policy discussion

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<TheCustomOfLife> when I'm trying to make consensus policy in my Wikiproject, 
does the discussion need to be on the page itself?
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<TheCustomOfLife> because I'm putting the note there.
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<TheCustomOfLife> hello?
<TheCustomOfLife> anyone?
<Slowking_Man> She's...dead, Jim!
<TheCustomOfLife> I'm actually asking a Wikipedia question?
<Slowking_Man> TheCustomOfLife: That's a bannable offense.
<TheCustomOfLife> le cry
<Slowking_Man> I doubt there's a firm policy about where to put a certain type of 
<Slowking_Man> If it relates to the project, I'd say put it on the project Talk page.
<AdamBishop> yeah put it on the talk page
<Submarine> can I ask a legal question?
<Submarine> how do you call this when a court orders a suspect detained prior to trial?
<Submarine> remand?
<iMeowbot> TheCustomOfLife: If talk happen elsewhere, at least link to it.  It's good to 
have for the future if someone starts in with "well who decided that anyway?"
<jag123> sub- yes
<Submarine> who decides remand in the US?
<jag123> the judge
<Slowking_Man> Judges, I think.
<TheCustomOfLife> read that and please add input.
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<TheCustomOfLife> I think it's especially important to get input from people who aren't contributing to the soap articles themselves.
<TheCustomOfLife> to get a fresh perspective.
<Submarine> mmmh
Submarine fails to see the diff between the US and French systems on this point
<u119> Check out [[User:Budd]], he's the pelican shit guy
<u119> (and, er, he's editing articles with that)
<CryptoDerk> taken care of
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<CryptoDerk> pick one: sand beige or fresh blue
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<TheCustomOfLife> Is anyone feeling up to commenting on my WikiProject policy proposal?
<Pechorin> TheCustomOfLife, the soap opera one? I didn't quite understand what was the 
proposed solution
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<TheCustomOfLife> k, I'll give an example
<TheCustomOfLife> right now, in the soap articles and soap actor articles, they post 
casting information straight out of Soap Digest.
<TheCustomOfLife> So an article will say "so and so will leave the show in April"
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<TheCustomOfLife> I don't feel it's right to publish that stuff, because it's not fact 
<TheCustomOfLife> like, they haven't left that moment, they're still airing
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<TheCustomOfLife> I gave an example of a casting decision that was reversed
<Pechorin> oh ok.. so those are really "rumors" and not "confirmed facts"? I mean, there 
are instances of rumors being wrong?
<TheCustomOfLife> no, most of these are confirmed exits and entrances
<TheCustomOfLife> but the thing is, it hasn't aired yet
<TheCustomOfLife> for, like, two months.
<TheCustomOfLife> I don't feel Wikipedia is the "Comings and Goings" section of Soap 
<Pechorin> but, are they from reliable sources?
<TheCustomOfLife> yes, but my point is that they haven't aired yet
<SPUI> hmmm, it may be encyclopedic even if it's reversed though, since it was almost 
going to happen
<TheCustomOfLife> so why are they on Wikipedia?
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<SPUI> [[2008 Presidential election]]
<TheCustomOfLife> I just don't think some appreciate going there and reading about cast 
<SPUI> er [[U.S. presidential election, 2008]]
<TheCustomOfLife> because some don't like to be spoiled. a factual article shouldn't 
really have those.
<Pechorin> TheCustomOfLife, well, we do collect encylopedic knowledge... and we don't 
care it it's a spoiler or not... if it's a "fact", it's fine by me.. but if I do comment, 
I'll do it tomorrow (I have it in my bookmark), because I am not sober enough right now
<SPUI> then slap a spoiler alert
<TheCustomOfLife> it isn't fair that it should have one.
<TheCustomOfLife> you're getting my point? I don't like the idea of "if you don't like 
spoilers, don't read the article"
<TheCustomOfLife> because people won't
<SPUI> maybe make a special spoiler alert "below is information about episodes that 
haven't aired yet"
<TheCustomOfLife> and it shuts off a lot of people who'd otherwise be interested
<TheCustomOfLife> see, I'd like that.
<Pechorin> TheCustomOfLife, I do understand it... but we should probably just add a bigger "spoiler" note...
<TheCustomOfLife> The spoiler bit shouldn't be on the whole article.
<TheCustomOfLife> because for the most part, it covers history
<TheCustomOfLife> stuff that happened.
<SPUI> yeah, it might be nice to have an "end spoiler" tag too
<SPUI> and an end superspoiler
<TheCustomOfLife> there was a world before Soap Digest. They didn't know what was going 
to air, so why should we cater to the people who like them?
<TheCustomOfLife> them being spoilers
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<TheCustomOfLife> I know I didn't appreciate finding out that Ashley Bashioum won't 
be airing anymore as Mackenzie on The Young and the Restless.
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<TheCustomOfLife> iMeowbot, I've responded to you
<TheCustomOfLife> on the WikiProject talk
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<Austin> Heh, Colin Burnett.  :)
<jag123> CustomOfLife - Soap digest is never wrong in their speculation?
<TheCustomOfLife> they are
<Cburnett> hi Austin
<cimon> on teh quarter Washingtons head has the In God we trust, and the obverse side has the vineholding eagle and E Pluribus Unum.
<TheCustomOfLife> but it's so rare.
<Austin> Hey Colin.  :)
<TheCustomOfLife> like
<TheCustomOfLife> there's a speculation section
<TheCustomOfLife> then a "Comings and Goings"
<TheCustomOfLife> which means who IS leaving
<TheCustomOfLife> and who IS staying
<TheCustomOfLife> and who IS coming.
<Austin> I used to figure you for a chick, you know.  Blame a popular 70s celebrity.
<jag123> Custom - how often are these articles updated anyway?
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<TheCustomOfLife> You'd be surprised. It's pretty much many times daily.
<TheCustomOfLife> it depends on which soap it is. Some soaps are more popular with the bot.
<Pechorin> Nana, there you are! (I am not stalking you, I swear, a fucking coincidence) :)
<TheCustomOfLife> I've found that they really like All My Children and One Life to Live, but this casting dilemma has found its way to all the articles.
<TheCustomOfLife> when they spread to the soap ACTOR articles is when a red flag came up, for me
<TheCustomOfLife> I mean, are we gonna put spoiler notices on actor articles?
<Pechorin> TheCustomOfLife, would it be a good solution to separate general info articles and plot describing articles?
<TheCustomOfLife> I don't know, really.
<TheCustomOfLife> I mean, for example
<Nana> , hi Pechorin
<jag123> CustomOfLife - Although the edits are verifiable, it's still speculation, even if the digest is more right than wrong. I think you're safe with Verifiability
<TheCustomOfLife> [[All My Children]] splits up the history into four different sections
<Nana> am here but onmy way out, sorry:)
<TheCustomOfLife> but there is a cast list
<TheCustomOfLife> in each article
<TheCustomOfLife> and you'll see that there's (so and so airs until spring)
<TheCustomOfLife> or (so and so starts airing in April)
<Pechorin> Nana, no worries, I am about to go to sleep.. BUT, srecan 8. mart i javi se bre nekad jebote :)
<cimon> yo, any brits on the channel?
<TheCustomOfLife> it's not even a distinctly American thing
<TheCustomOfLife> it's also on [[EastEnders]]
<Pechorin> cimon, I saw a shitload of BBC comedy.. do I count as british? :)
<Nana> Pechorin, , hvala hvala:) , bom, ko utegnem:)
<Pechorin> Nana, that's the story of my life :)
<Nana> in, Pechorin lahko noÄ
<Pechorin> laku noc!
<PZFUN> Oh god. Cantus is on the loose!
<jag123> CustomOfLife what's wrong with the cast list on all my children?
<Nana> Pechorin, , men je res zal, ampak zadnje case sem overloaded in nimam casa chattat sploh
<Pechorin> (for anyone not speaking serbo-slovenian: pechorin just got fucked off by Nana)
<TheCustomOfLife> Does it not have any of those examples?
<TheCustomOfLife> let me see
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<TheCustomOfLife> Kelli Giddish (Diana Cole) starting March 15th 
<TheCustomOfLife> that's what I'm talking about
<Pechorin> Nana, razumem, nema problema... ali, nemoj da zaboravis da postojim i da imam divan smisao za humor, i da se secam 8. marta, a bogami i ostalih praznika :)
<Nana> not rtue at all, Nana just explaining she's rater busy lately, Pechorin  ull see how it will be when u get to writiing up ur PhD
<TheCustomOfLife> No one is going to know who Diana Cole is now
<TheCustomOfLife> unless they read spoilers
<TheCustomOfLife> she is a new character.
<Pechorin> Nana, ok :)
<TheCustomOfLife> and even a recast is shaky ground
<jag123> CustomOfLife - what's wrong with that though?
<TheCustomOfLife> it's that people who don't read that shouldn't have to know about it
<TheCustomOfLife> especially in a cast list
<TheCustomOfLife> because they're not part of the cast airing on the show yet.
<TheCustomOfLife> It isn't in the now.
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<jag123> ohhh, I see the starting march 15th now
<Submarine> soaps soaps soaps
<jag123> CustomOfLife - well that's not current cast members, that should be removed.
<TheCustomOfLife> It's not really a question of speculation
<TheCustomOfLife> because she is coming
<TheCustomOfLife> her first scenes have been taped
<TheCustomOfLife> she will air.
<TheCustomOfLife> but that's just it.
<TheCustomOfLife> she WILL air.
<TheCustomOfLife> She is not airing now.
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<jag123> yes, but she didn't
<TheCustomOfLife> indeed.
<jag123> then it's not current
<TheCustomOfLife> exactly.
<jag123> hehehe
<jag123> and people rever this when you take it out?
<TheCustomOfLife> Well, that's just it, it hasn't been done yet.
<TheCustomOfLife> There are anonymous bots who add it in.
<TheCustomOfLife> and I would very well be reverted if I tried.
<TheCustomOfLife> so I want to start a discussion.
<jag123> try it and we'll see
<jag123> what if the actress dies tomorrow. Then it's not guaranteed that she will be aired.
<TheCustomOfLife> exactly.
<TheCustomOfLife> I didn't even think of that
<TheCustomOfLife> but that is very valid indeed.
<wirelain> 334-384
<TheCustomOfLife> and there are other examples on the articles
<TheCustomOfLife> see [[As the World Turns]]
<wirelain> oops, wroong window ...
<Slowking_Man> Whee, I just edited a Wikinews article.
<jag123> Custom- the until spring thing?
<TheCustomOfLife> yeah
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<jag123> Custom - have you talked to the bot's creator about this?
<TheCustomOfLife> Well, that's just it
<TheCustomOfLife> it's speculative as to who the bot actually belongs to
<TheCustomOfLife> I've nailed it down to User:PeterAKer
<TheCustomOfLife> but without further studying
<TheCustomOfLife> I am not 100% sure.
<TheCustomOfLife> It's a guess.
<jag123> I thought bot owners were supposed to be identified
<TheCustomOfLife> see [[User:B-Movie Bandit]]
<wirelain> grr .. ok, me and the calorimetry lab jsut did not get along.
<TheCustomOfLife> This used to be a problem "user"
<Corwin_> Anyone know if the number slated for the amount of men in a Roman Cohort(480) is accurate?
<TheCustomOfLife> but apparently he has read the discussions on him, and then started to reform...albeit slightly.
<jag123> Custom - what's the bot's name?
<cimon> AdamBishop?
<TheCustomOfLife> It just operates under IP addresses.
<TheCustomOfLife> See User:B-Movie Bandit for the list of IPs.
<cimon> Too bad Muriel Gottrop is not an irc'er
<TheCustomOfLife> Since he hasn't really caused problems in a few months, I don't think the list of IPs has been updated in a while
<TheCustomOfLife> but the vague ranges are there.
<Austin> Oh, I wish.
<PZFUN> Why doesn't kate's edit counter work anymore? :(
<cimon> she would sort aout any questions about cohorts in short order.
<cimon> All I know is that the roman centuries were always short like their swords. 60 to 75 men being the norm.
<jag123> Custom - and none of these anon bots/editors talk/discuss on pages or what not?
<TheCustomOfLife> no.
<TheCustomOfLife> that's the problem.
<TheCustomOfLife> read the discussions on the B-Movie Bandit page.
<TheCustomOfLife> It should fill you in on it all.
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<Burgundavia> PZFUN: it was written in java, nonfree, so it was removed
<cimon> The idea was that a centurion was competent to lead 100 men, so that if two centuries were decimated, they could easily merge.
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<PZFUN> Burgundavia > Yes, but its not on an external website but it doesn't seem to work anymore
<Burgundavia> PZFUN: she removed it, due to the java issue
<Burgundavia> it was hosted on wp servers, from what i understand
<jag123> Custom - you want to make a policy to address the contributions of a list of IPs who never discuss their changes?
<cimon> Burgundavia: Yo, man!
<Burgundavia> hey cimon
<Burgundavia> cimon, decimated is a specific term
<TheCustomOfLife> well, I want it to be policy for others, since they have also edited these speculations in
<TheCustomOfLife> so it's not just the IP
<TheCustomOfLife> but the IP is the main problem. 
<cimon> yes, I was applying it liverally.
<Burgundavia> means killing one man in 10, as punishment
<TheCustomOfLife> Since the IP has "reformed," so to speak, I figure with the policy, he'd reform to that, too
<jag123> Custom - what about having theese supposed comings and goings under a diffrent section? Would you agree to that?
<cimon> Burgundavia> supposed to confuse troop coördination.
<flamingspinach> yay, coördination! :)
<TheCustomOfLife> I don't think that would be bad, but a speculative casting article?
<qtip> question: do disambiguation pages /have/ to contain links?
<wirelain> Ok, anyone taken the basic calorimetry lab?
<TheCustomOfLife> because it'd still be in the same casting area if it weren't its own article
<TheCustomOfLife> Personally, I don't see the need for it to be there at all.
<jag123> Custom - honestly, until you actually get a user who objects, I would just remove/fix the pages
<Burgundavia> TheCustomOfLife: what bot are we discussing?
<TheCustomOfLife> I'd rather get a consensus decision before just doing something that could so easily be reverted.
<TheCustomOfLife> [[User:B-Movie Bandit]] proxies
<jag123> Custom - the bot is that quick on reverting?
<TheCustomOfLife> it's that quick on editing it in.
<qtip> fine, i'll leave
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<TheCustomOfLife> It has to deal with nine articles. 
<TheCustomOfLife> I don't want to edit out nine instances
<TheCustomOfLife> only to have it added back in nine places
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<jag123> Custom - and the alternative is having an admin block of a list of IPs? I dont think that'll happen
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<TheCustomOfLife> but are you listening to me about the policy?
<TheCustomOfLife> the person who's operating the bot obviously read the first discussion, because they're not creating shitty substubs anymore
<TheCustomOfLife> if they read the second discussion, then I have hope that it'll go away.
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<TheCustomOfLife> I just don't understand why the Wiki user doesn't own up to owning the bots. It'd make it a lot easier to contact him/her.
<jag123> Custom - has it been discussed anywhere that putting supposed new cast members is not appreciated?
<TheCustomOfLife> This is the first time.
<TheCustomOfLife> That's why I brought it up in the first place.
<jag123> it just seems odd to me that you're making a policy for something that's not currently a problem
<TheCustomOfLife> I see it as a problem
<TheCustomOfLife> and I figure it's so small, and just for this project.
<TheCustomOfLife> It's not like 100 editors work on this project.
<TheCustomOfLife> I'd say 15 or 16, tops
<TheCustomOfLife> if that.
<cimon> Speculation about futere is problematic, and should probably be authoritatively sourced.
<jag123> yeah, I know you see it as a problem, but how does the guy know you have a problem if you never mentionned it before
<TheCustomOfLife> That's why I'm mentioning it now?
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<jag123> yeah, as a proposed policy, which I find weird
<TheCustomOfLife> for soap articles.
<TheCustomOfLife> not for Wikipedia.
<TheCustomOfLife> nine soap articles, and the few hundred or so actor articles
<TheCustomOfLife> so it's fairly minor
<TheCustomOfLife> I mean, if you want me to take out the word "policy"....
<PZFUN> Oh my god
<PZFUN> Want to see the lamest edit war, EVER?
<TheCustomOfLife> but then that implies that it's only suggested
<TheCustomOfLife> and it should be rule. I'd like it to be.
<jag123> it's not the word policy, it's just that you haven't even asked nicely for him to stop
<TheCustomOfLife> The bots don't respond to talk.
<TheCustomOfLife> Honestly.
<jag123> revert it, state your reasons on the talk page, and maybe he'll just stop
<TheCustomOfLife> Did you not read the B-Movie Bandit?
<jag123> you just said the guy reads the discussions
<TheCustomOfLife> after months.
<cimon> PZFUN> go ahead...
<jag123> and he'll read the policy sooner?
<PZFUN> [[Talk:Battle of Spion Kop]]
<TheCustomOfLife> I say the sooner it can be enforced, the better.
<jag123> enforced how? I'll be surprised if you find an admin who blocks a list of IPs
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<cimon> PZFUN> even the title is a chuckle.
<TheCustomOfLife> not forever
<TheCustomOfLife> but for a few hours.
<TheCustomOfLife> it has happened in the past.
<PZFUN> Cimon > That's what the edit war is over
<PZFUN> South Africans say Spioenkop, because its the proper name of the mountain where the battle took place
<TheCustomOfLife> but honestly, seriously, just read the B-Movie Bandit stuff. I think some of your concerns will be addressed if you just read it
<PZFUN> (SPy Hill)
<Jamesday> Um.... lets see, there appears to be a bot operating without approval per the bot policy, right?
<TheCustomOfLife> yes.
<PZFUN> but British people got the name wrong and say Spion Kop
<Jamesday> And nobody has yet asked a developer to check the ID of the bot owner?:)
<PZFUN> So all the South African editors want to make it Spioenkop as its a South African war
<jag123> Jamesday - he's not sure it's a bot
<TheCustomOfLife> no, haha
<Jamesday> Perhaps someone should?:)
<TheCustomOfLife> perhaps.
<TheCustomOfLife> jag123, it's most definitely a bot.
<Jamesday> I mean, there is a developer here who has a definite interest in potentially disruptive bots:)
<TheCustomOfLife> Jamesday, have you been following [[User:B-Movie Bandit]]?
<cimon> PZFUN> I think google is a valid way to chekc that particular dispute.
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<Jamesday> And _if_ someone has set a bot to auto-revert, that appears to be something pretty contrary to practie and normallya ccepted behavior.
<jag123> James - all they have is a list of IPs. It could be a shy human editor who doesn't speak good english
<TheCustomOfLife> the phrasing is too fixed to be a human.
<Jamesday> TheCustomOfLife, seems to be doing useful things, creating lots of good short articles about B movies and their casts.
<Jamesday> Which some peopel strongly disliked, of course:)
<TheCustomOfLife> Some people would disagree.
<TheCustomOfLife> like me.
<Jamesday> But that's a different issue fro the bot one:)
<jag123> Custom - someone can cut and paste
<Jamesday> And hta's what I'm really discussing at present, not useful stubs:)
<TheCustomOfLife> can, but let's be real here.
<TheCustomOfLife> I don't think that's what it is
<TheCustomOfLife> and others don't, either.
<PZFUN> Cimon > Spion Kop comes up with more references, but its an incorrect spelling
<TheCustomOfLife> This discussion has been going on for probably six months.
<Jamesday> Anyway, if a bot is involved and isn't approved, I may investigate that myself
<cimon> Jamesday, whut is a "public dump", I f you dont mind me asking, and is it something that should be added into the channel topic?
<Jamesday> But I prefer to have a community request for such checks.
<TheCustomOfLife> Where do I do that?
<Jamesday> Cimon, it's
<jag123> Custom- the nine articles, it's the ones ini US Soap operas?
<Jamesday> here :)
<Jamesday> anywhere you can find me :)
<PZFUN> Cimon > Just like the Bunker Hill Monument is on the wrong hill, it doesn't mean that we should talk about the Bunker Hill Battle taking place there just because it comes up with more hits on Google
<TheCustomOfLife> the nine articles are the nine US soaps, correct
<Burgundavia> PZFUN: then put the article under the incorrect name and put a note in the 1st para
<TheCustomOfLife> plus whatever soap actor articles are affected